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-   -   Should Rose be in the Hall? (https://www.baseballforum.com/hall-fame/54056-should-rose-hall.html)

Oriolesfan44 01-20-2007 03:38 AM

Should Rose be in the Hall?
 
well yes or no?:dunno:

mueller11 01-20-2007 10:36 AM

i say yes.everything rose did was well after his playing days were over .

nyjyrk 01-20-2007 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mueller11
i say yes.everything rose did was well after his playing days were over .

Agreed.
What he did as a manager should not effect his playing career.

mattieATL 01-20-2007 01:52 PM

Yes, i never saw him play cause im young but still i do think ole johnny hustle should be in the hall.

johnsondc 01-20-2007 01:55 PM

Never. He was a skell who violated and broke the most sacred tenet of baseball. He should be banned forever.

Oriolesfan44 01-20-2007 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nyjyrk
Agreed.
What he did as a manager should not effect his playing career.

your right :thumbsup: him betting on baseball as a manager shouldn't outweigh the fact that he is the all time hits leader as a player

mattieATL 01-20-2007 02:01 PM

Most Sacred? Theres a man by the name of Maris who has had his record broken flasly by some steriod giants.

Oriolesfan44 01-20-2007 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mattieATL
Most Sacred? Theres a man by the name of Maris who has had his record broken flasly by some steriod giants.

good point :thumbsup:

mattieATL 01-20-2007 02:03 PM

Thanks, I say its ON the field not OFF.

Oriolesfan44 01-20-2007 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mattieATL
Thanks, I say its ON the field not OFF.

oh yeah i know i agree

mattieATL 01-20-2007 02:06 PM

Its what some one does ON the field Not Off it.

Oriolesfan44 01-20-2007 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mattieATL
Its what some one does ON the field Not Off it.

yeah i know i agreed with you

NatsNSoxFan 01-20-2007 03:20 PM

I say yes. If we're going to judge people on what they did off the field then Ty Cobb shouldn't be in, Babe Ruth shouldn't be in, Mickey Mantle shouldn't be in, and if im not mistaken Fergie Jenkins shouldnt be in. Cobb was a murderer, Ruth and Mantle were both drunks and womanizers, and Jenkins was involved with the drug scandal during the 80's. There are countless more people that are in that didn't have great character and didn't always do things by the book and more to come. If we're going to keep him out because of betting then why should we let murderers and drunks in?

Oriolesfan44 01-20-2007 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmonahan7
I say yes. If we're going to judge people on what they did off the field then Ty Cobb shouldn't be in, Babe Ruth shouldn't be in, Mickey Mantle shouldn't be in, and if im not mistaken Fergie Jenkins shouldnt be in. Cobb was a murderer, Ruth and Mantle were both drunks and womanizers, and Jenkins was involved with the drug scandal during the 80's. There are countless more people that are in that didn't have great character and didn't always do things by the book and more to come. If we're going to keep him out because of betting then why should we let murderers and drunks in?


wow! great points i agree completely :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Mduffman25 01-31-2007 01:01 PM

cmon you can't penalize him for something stupid he did after his playing career i mean i'm not saying he shouldn't be punished but everyone is entitled to 1 or 2 bad descisions I say yes!

johnsondc 01-31-2007 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmonahan7
I say yes. If we're going to judge people on what they did off the field then Ty Cobb shouldn't be in, Babe Ruth shouldn't be in, Mickey Mantle shouldn't be in, and if im not mistaken Fergie Jenkins shouldnt be in. Cobb was a murderer, Ruth and Mantle were both drunks and womanizers, and Jenkins was involved with the drug scandal during the 80's. There are countless more people that are in that didn't have great character and didn't always do things by the book and more to come. If we're going to keep him out because of betting then why should we let murderers and drunks in?

To put it very simply, those are the rules. You bet on baseball, your banned. Those have been the rules since the beginnings of the game. Ban the bum forever.

BoSoxNation 01-31-2007 08:40 PM

At first I thought no but after reading his book it changed my mind completely. So yes Pete deserves to be in the hall

apujols_5 01-31-2007 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnsondc
To put it very simply, those are the rules. You bet on baseball, your banned. Those have been the rules since the beginnings of the game. Ban the bum forever.

i completely agree...i does matter what he did off the field because he wanted to give up the posibility of him making hall do to stupid things...i think he was a good player but no matter what people do he gave it up

BayAreaYankeeFan 02-01-2007 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mueller11
i say yes.everything rose did was well after his playing days were over .

Wow, I found something we both can agree on.

You're 100% right on this. Besides the guy deserves the HoF more than anyone who isn't on it. He's broke and I feel pity for the guy. He'll probably getting once he's dead and a new generation of voters come in.

BayAreaYankeeFan 02-01-2007 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmonahan7
I say yes. If we're going to judge people on what they did off the field then Ty Cobb shouldn't be in, Babe Ruth shouldn't be in, Mickey Mantle shouldn't be in, and if im not mistaken Fergie Jenkins shouldnt be in. Cobb was a murderer, Ruth and Mantle were both drunks and womanizers, and Jenkins was involved with the drug scandal during the 80's. There are countless more people that are in that didn't have great character and didn't always do things by the book and more to come. If we're going to keep him out because of betting then why should we let murderers and drunks in?

I agree with what Rose did was wrong and he should be in the Hall but being a womanizer and a drunk isn't at all bad...
It's not against the law? MLB law to say the least...

What Ruth and Mantle did was BS compared to what Rose did. Mantle if I'm not mistaken wrote about a few moonshots he hit while being drunk or hungover. WTH is wrong with that, just added to his badboy image. Harmless IMHO

Ky Cardinal 02-01-2007 12:23 PM

I don't like the fact that he bet on baseball, but the fact is he was one very good player. He set a terrific example on the field of hustle and determination. Although he made some bad choices off the field, as a player he has earned his way into the hall of fame.

DenverCubsFan 02-01-2007 03:35 PM

Pete Rose should absolutly be in the HOF!! My reasoning has nothin to do with what he did as a manager as others were saying. He is the all-time hit leader, an MVP, a World Series MVP, 17 time All-Star(at an un heard of 5 different positions) and he didn't use enhancements to do it.
On the other hand, guys like Barry Bonds, Sammy Sosa, Mark Maguire, etc. should never reach the Hall because they accomplished what they did unnaturally and used enhancements to further their stats. Now if they had not used drugs would some of the names mentioned above still accomplish what they have, who knows? If these guys make the HOF then by all means Pete Rose deserves to be right there with them!!

NatsNSoxFan 02-01-2007 06:20 PM

In fairness to Bonds and Big Mac they were both good hitters before they bulked up.

BayAreaYankeeFan 02-01-2007 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmonahan7
In fairness to Bonds and Big Mac they were both good hitters before they bulked up.

Uhmm, Mcgwire a good hitter? He bulked up as soon as he met Canseco. By 1987 he was already noticably bigger from the previous year. He was a skinny nerd in 1986 before they became the part of the bash brothers.

Bonds without roids was better than McGwire on them. Better average, equal power, speed, fielding, arm...

apujols_5 02-01-2007 09:21 PM

ok, it does not matter what he did off the field if he gave up the hof...its not like someone said "oh u bet on baseball, ur ban from the hall." he gaveit up. its like saying i aced a test but i cheated to do it...by what u say it would only matter what i did on the test...not that i cheated on it...if he didn't give up the hall alot of us would prolly be talkin about how he doesn't belong there...its hard to say though...i'm stickin with my vote and sayin no

newsman90038 02-01-2007 11:16 PM

One of the biggest autrocities in sports history is the mlb keeping Rose out of the Hall of Fame. How do you ignore one of the most important records. I agree with you all

NatsNSoxFan 02-01-2007 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apujols_5
ok, it does not matter what he did off the field if he gave up the hof...its not like someone said "oh u bet on baseball, ur ban from the hall." he gaveit up. its like saying i aced a test but i cheated to do it...by what u say it would only matter what i did on the test...not that i cheated on it...if he didn't give up the hall alot of us would prolly be talkin about how he doesn't belong there...its hard to say though...i'm stickin with my vote and sayin no

Okay, if you feel didnt do anything to help his performance on the field but just made one stupid decision off of it doesnt deserve to be in, then what do you think about Big Mac not making it and if Sammy and Barry should when their turns come up?

apujols_5 02-02-2007 12:11 AM

i also think no on them...it doesn't help that i have always hated bonds and sosa and i have hated mcguire since the hearing...but like i said i don't want them in either

johnsondc 02-02-2007 09:38 AM

It is my opinion that anyone dishonoring the game via betting on baseball, use of steroids to inflate personal performance should not be considered for the HOF. One difference in baseballs eyes is that if you bet on baseball games you are automatically banned no matter who you are or what you did. As apujols_5 stated. rose is the one who made the choice and is essence banned himself. He should not be rewarded for it.

BayAreaYankeeFan 02-02-2007 03:47 PM

I think we all can say that we subconciously knew that McGwire and Sosa were on something. I don't think we are too gullible to believe that lightning could strike twice with something that has only happened once in over acentury.

We fell for it and we should've known better, and all we did was eat it up. Some of us probably got all teary-eyed when McGwire bear hugged Sosa in St Louie... Or collected every single Canseco rookie card.

Alot of people sound annoyed or have this distaste for these guys, but remember we're the ones who pay their salary. We enjoyed every single minute of it. Bonds just felt uninvited and crashed the party. I think he deserves the HoF, he wasn't roiding till after Mac and Sosa fooled us all.

johnsondc 02-02-2007 05:46 PM

You are probably right. Although far too many people are willing to accept cheating and cheaters. I for one do not accept the records of the cheaters. Aaron is the all time HR leader. Maris had the best single season and thats it. Baseball needs to adopt what horse racing does. If a horse is found drugged in its urine sample after the race, his record is erased for that race. In other words he did not win and is placed last. All earnings that his owners would have received are forfeited and the 2nd place horse becomes the winner and so on down the line. All bets made by the public are paid out as to the original result since the drugging proof is after the fact. same thing would happen in baseball, the results of games remain and the season remains as is. Just the records of the cheaters are expunged. They then are banned (as far as I am concerned)from any consideration into the HOF as pete rose is now.

oliva 02-03-2007 02:15 PM

Pete Rose
 
Yes he should be in. Any fan worth his salt knows how great Pete was. The hell with politics. Keep him out of an active role in baseball. That is punishment enough. To keep him out of the HOF is an insult to a fan's intelligence.

johnsondc 02-03-2007 04:23 PM

I think it's just the other way around. To accept breaking the most sacred rule of baseball is not politics. It's the rule. Accepting violation of the most sacred rule is the insult to the fans intelligence.

oliva 02-03-2007 05:57 PM

I agree that Rose should be punished and not letting him have anything to do with baseball at the major or minor league levels is a fitting punishment. I do not agree with what he did but you just can not ignore his accomplishments on the field. Geez he had more hits then Ty Cobb, then anyone. If they keep Pete out of the Hall then OJ's bust should be removed fron Canton. Still you can't deny that OJ was one of the ten greatest backs ever. He deserves to be in the Football HOF because of his on field performance. At least Pete was never accused of killing anyone.

johnsondc 02-03-2007 07:24 PM

oj did not bet on games and did not break any football tenets. rose bet on games and broke baseballs most revered tenet.

oliva 02-03-2007 10:52 PM

Like I said, keep him out of baseball entirely. That would be fine with me. I agree he should be punished for what he did and yes, maybe even used as an example. Whatever he did off the field, on the field Rose gave 110 %. That's why he was nicknamed " Charlie Hustle ". That is why he should be in the HOF.

NatsNSoxFan 02-03-2007 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnsondc
oj did not bet on games and did not break any football tenets. rose bet on games and broke baseballs most revered tenet.

No, he didnt break any football tenets. BUT HE DID MURDER SOMEONE!! You can't use that arguement, it is two completely different things. There is a difference between taking someones life and doing something stupid without harming anyone off the field.

BayAreaYankeeFan 02-04-2007 06:38 AM

OJ is a disgrace, he shouldnt be mentioned in this thread....

johnsondc 02-04-2007 08:33 AM

I agree. oj is a disgrace. He did commit murder. Unfortunately he was found innocent by a jury. My point is one has nothing to do with the other. I also agree rose was one of the greatest players on the field of all time. And he is honored and remembered for that by almost every fan of baseball. He also broke baseballs most sacred tenet and he did so willingly and knowingly. The punishment for this as it is for anyone who bets on baseball is banishment from the game and the HOF. There is no question rose deserves the HOF for what he accomplished for his team as a player, and there is no question he should be banned from the HOF for what he did to baseball as a manager. One act overwhelms the other and he is banned.

NatsNSoxFan 02-04-2007 11:30 AM

You cannot keep the all-time hit leader, one of the biggest workhorses, and hustlers out of the hall of fame. He hustled out every play, even in All-Star games, back then they meant absolutely nothing and he still played hard.

johnsondc 02-04-2007 12:33 PM

I nor anyone is keeping rose out of the HOF. He did it to himself, by his free will, breaking baseballs most sacred tenet. He is out of the HOF because of what he alone did. No one forced him, it was his decision. He must live with it. out of the HOF. That is the way it is, and hopefully always be. Tolerating breaking of rules, as does breaking the law in general, leads to moral decay and corruption.

BayAreaYankeeFan 02-04-2007 01:22 PM

Maybe they can put his stats in the Hall. Put his bust up but no name on it. Stats for "The Player" or just name him "Charlie P. Hustle".

I don't care what he did, he deserves it alrdeady and the punishment doesn't fit the crime. Steroids have had a worse impact on the game than what Pete did.

NatsNSoxFan 02-04-2007 02:16 PM

BayArea hit the nail right on the head. Pete did nothing to help his on field performance which is the reason of this arguement. If Pete wasnt such a great player we wouldnt be having this arguement and he got the stats he did by the book and cleanly. Guys like Bonds, Maguire, and Sosa will all get in eventually and they did it at least somewhat artificially. Pete did something stupid off the field that im sure he regrets and he doesnt deserve to lose his immortality in the hall of fame just for placing some bets.

johnsondc 02-04-2007 07:23 PM

I agree what the steroid users did is far worst than what rose did. However, betting on games has been and is baseballs most sacred tenet. rose knew the and thus dug his own grave, to be buried forever.

MJSmith1208 02-06-2007 04:39 PM

I think that he should be aloud in.....people make mistakes were only human. Besides I say he is one of the greatest baseball players of all time and they should just look at what he done on the field rather than off...

NatsNSoxFan 02-06-2007 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnsondc
I agree what the steroid users did is far worst than what rose did. However, betting on games has been and is baseballs most sacred tenet. rose knew the and thus dug his own grave, to be buried forever.

I understand why you dont think he should be allowed in but its silly.

If im not mistaken none of the bets were on his own team. And allow him induction into the hall of fame just dont let him be a scout or manager or anything. Ban him from being involved that way. I dont even care if they dont let him make an induction speech but he deserves to be in!

johnsondc 02-06-2007 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmonahan7
I understand why you dont think he should be allowed in but its silly.

If im not mistaken none of the bets were on his own team. And allow him induction into the hall of fame just dont let him be a scout or manager or anything. Ban him from being involved that way. I dont even care if they dont let him make an induction speech but he deserves to be in!

i understand what you are saying, and fully agree re roses playing abilities. From what I know, he did bet on games involving his team. That is unimportant. He still broke the most respected baseball rule. The rule is posted in every clubhouse in baseball. When we start disregarding the consequences of our actions, then anyone should be allowed to disregard the consequences of their actions. It then becomes a very slippery slope straight down the hill.

Baseball Jazz 02-06-2007 07:34 PM

HOF should be the sanctuary of the games best players, regardless of their off-field behaviour. Rose's story is known well enough, visitors to the HOF can make up their own minds how they view him....but he should be there.

NatsNSoxFan 02-06-2007 09:41 PM

exactly. The Hall of Fame is place for onfield legends regardless of there off the field actions.

boozerc2003 02-06-2007 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mueller11
i say yes.everything rose did was well after his playing days were over .

the reason Rose in not in the HOF is not beacuse of his playing days it is about what he did as manager of the reds. He bet on the Reds while he was manager of the team. Thats what people can't get over.


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