[Domenic]

I wanted to put Ben Sheets so badly, because I truly believe that he has the best stuff in the league. The fact that he's missed nearly forty starts in the past three seasons, though, made me reluctant to do so. He's too fragile, in my opinion, so I had to dock him for that.

[grasshopper_tom]

I almost went with Halladay because Im a jays fan but Peavy is the best no doubt

[Vlad's The Man]

Originally Posted by DodgerBlue32

Let's compare Harang and Wang, over the past three years (2005-2007):

Wang - 3.74 ERA, .268/.319/.371, 3 CG, 3.8 K/9, 1.59 K/BB
Harang - 3.77 ERA, .259/.302/.422, 9 CG, 7.9 K/9, 3.75 K/BB

You look at these stats, and yes Harang looks better, but you have to take into account that Wang is not a strikeout pitcher. He's a ground out style player. K's, much like home runs on offense, is a overrated statistic (I'm not just saying this to help my argument, I seriously believe it. And this is coming from a Randy Johnson fan.). When looking at these stats you see Wang's lower era, while Harang has a lower batting average and on base percentage, but Wang has a the lower slugging percentage. This is a full testament to his ground out style pitching, which also explains his low K/9 and K/BB. He might not complete as many games as Aaron, but let's take a look at this stat:

Winning, last two complete season pitching
Wang- 38
Harang- 32

You might say that this is team effort, but it's quite an important statistic to leave out of this argument. I'm not saying Wang will be the best over the next 5 seasons, but he deserves to be on the list instead of Harang, IMO. (By the way, I respect your list and your opinions as well.)

Sorry for taking so long to reply, didn't have much time between school work.

[Vlad's The Man]

Originally Posted by teamera2008

I dissagree when you say peavey had a more successful career while justifying peavy..

I read your statement, and didn't know what you were talking about. I was like, "I didn't say that, did I?" I looked back and I sure did, I said Peavy had the more successful career. I don't know why I said that at all. Your right that he might not be the most successful, I guess when writing I for some reason let my typing get the best of me and wasn't reading what I was typing.

[Vlad's The Man]

Originally Posted by DodgerBlue32

I really don't understand where all this love for Dan Haren is coming from - he's a solid pitcher, but his All-Star status was predicated upon one stellar half. In 2007 he had an ERA of 2.30 in the first half, and 4.15 thereafter - in fact, his performance decreased in each successive month: 1.60 ERA, 1.67, 2.55, 4.10, 4.15, and 4.82. Most of his other rates dropped successively, to boot.

Coming into the 2007 season, his ERA was 4.05. Drop his first half of 2007, and his career ERA is 4.10. While it isn't terrible, and is actually quite solid, I feel that there needs to be a great deal of scrutiny in evaluating his career numbers.

I agree that in the past Haren's career hasn't been as spectacular as Webb's or Peavy's. But this is a future pick and I for one believe Haren could become quite the pitcher in Arizona, much like how Randy Johnson's stats went up after moving from the AL to NL (obviously I don't think his numbers will be anywhere close to Randy's though). This is a projection of the future, for one of the most unreliable positions for consistency. I agree that Haren could turn out to be just a good pitcher, and not the best righty over the next 5 years, but his chances are looking good to me, which is why I thought he should be on the list. His ability and future is looking more promising than Lackey's, who I can't see having another 19 win season.

[Domenic]

Wang's inability to strikeout hitters, and higher walk rate, allows for more baserunners - which is the bane of any pitcher's existence, to exaggerate. I agree he is quite good, and I do think he is, overall, a top twenty or so pitcher - I just don't feel that he is stronger than anyone on this list.

And for wins, you also have to consider run support - of which Wang's was higher than any pitcher on this list.

[Vlad's The Man]

Originally Posted by DodgerBlue32

Wang's inability to strikeout hitters, and higher walk rate, allows for more baserunners - which is the bane of any pitcher's existence, to exaggerate. I agree he is quite good, and I do think he is, overall, a top twenty or so pitcher - I just don't feel that he is stronger than anyone on this list.

And for wins, you also have to consider run support - of which Wang's was higher than any pitcher on this list.

Yes, walks can seriously hurt a pitcher, but comparing Harang and Wang again, their base on ball totals are very comparabled (both averaging about mid-50 BB/season). So comparable to say that Harang's K/BB stat being much larger than Wangs is a mute point (as I said, Chien is a ground out pitcher, not a strikeout guy; which isn't a bad thing, not that you said it was).

True, run support is a factor in wins. But considering that Wang's era is just as low as most of the players on the list, I'm not sure you can really take that away from the guy. Wins is a key stat for pitchers, and even average pitchers can win 14 games for a bad team (case in point, Noah Lowry getting 14 wins last season for the Giants). I think that it is a reliable stat, at least for good pitchers. Sometime it can waver because of the team, like Randy in '04 and Clemens in '05, but if a pitcher is good enough, they can win a good amount even on the most terrible of teams (Steve Carlton winning 27 games in 1972, on a team that only won 59 games, obviously every pitcher isn't a hall of famer though.).